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Post by jenari on Sept 4, 2015 10:13:05 GMT -6
it is not a balance issue pego it is a"making sense" issue.
it does not make sense to make attacks and it deal no damage and to have jolt.
it does not make sense. THEREFORE make it make sense. don't just use things to use them. like adding single shot blaster to a melee lightsaber user. or blaster barrage that can be used with lightsaber.
it is STUPID!!
we are smart enough to make it work and be a good representation
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Post by pegolego on Sept 6, 2015 22:33:47 GMT -6
...
The 'attack' roll in this instance is representing the attempt to disrupt the opponent, then they make their saves. Both are there to prevent it from being uber-powerful.
That is all. I fail to see how it is 'stupid', and also think putting SSB on a melee piece is just fine if it is needed to keep the piece from being over the top (though, in that regard, an ability to prevent Twin on MELEE pieces is admittedly LONG overdue, honestly... I just tend to try and avoid making up new abilities when there are already serviceable ones available). Would you rather the piece be balanced with a mechanic that doesn't explicitly make sense to you, or have it your way and it be broken, not function as intended or need to be entirely reworked for no reason?
The gripe with Yaddle may be justified in the sense that it may distinctly feel entirely different from what a character is known to be like/have capabilities that that character shouldn't have. This is an entirely different circumstance, this is utilizing basic/generic mechanics to reach the desired effect in a reasonable manner. There are things in this game from our version, WotC, v-sets whatever that don't make sense as rules/mechanics, sometimes you have to deal with them and sometimes you really have to question why such a thing exists (such as the famous example of the Mouse Droid 'covering' the Rancor), but I'm not comprehending your issues here. Splitting hairs and trying to needlessly complicate or over(under?) think things is a waste of time (yours and mine).
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Post by jenari on Sept 7, 2015 7:17:48 GMT -6
there is a large difference with dealing with wotc characters and designing characters. sure we have to deal with some liberties taken by wotc. but we do not have to design granting representation liberties to our pieces.
jolt... it is on pieces that have guns and attack other people. the hit of the blast jolts them.
there is no blast here. paploo is not shootig people.
diversion... when you damage someone... this piece deals no damage so diversion will not even work...
damaging someone shows attacking someone physically or mentally that caused pain or damage. did paploo do that?
nope he sure didn't.
did paploo target anyone? nope. and in this game when someone does something that might or might not effect other people those other people her top make the save.
we should not be afraid of new abilities if we are trying to represent a new concept.
as for being broken. there are plenty of ways to get what you want from this piece to be represented without breaking the game.
but to think that it is splitting hairs to not want a piece that does not deal garbage and that does not make attacks to not have abilities that represent attacking is silly to me.
it makes no sense whatsoever.
and single shot blaster on add-on all melee piece is not ok it is absurdly stupid.
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Post by pegolego on Sept 7, 2015 9:43:45 GMT -6
I'll replace Diversion then, simple fix. I still see no valid reason to change it.
On another note; rolling a save when someone shoots you (or, even better: hits you with a lightsaber, flamethrower, missile, blows up in your face... Anything!), and upon a success, automatically sic the damage on another piece of your choice within 6 squares... Make sense? No. (quote, jen'ari): "Absolute Devotion is an abstraction, but you can see it happening. It is a good translation into the game mechanics that we are allowed to use."
What's the difference? Any to be found would simply be splitting hairs, as what I'm doing is the same basic principle. You like that use of game mechanics, which is perfectly fine, and I think this one is interesting. I also think it makes more than enough sense to justify being used rather than creating new ways to do the exact same thing just because rolling a dice at a time usually reserved for 'an attack phase' on most pieces created for attacking doesn't make enough sense for your tastes... Besides, it's a GAME.
EDIT: Plus, a big reason I don't want to re work the attack to distract mechanic, besides that it's kewl, is that that would require needlessly changing the entire direction, design and functionality of the piece, or else losing other mechanics like 'Inexperienced', or the option to leave 'Scrub Hunter' on there. Plus probably leave us with a bunch of useless new abilities that will never be used again, which I hate doing lol, ESPECIALLY when there is zero reason to do so in the first place.
Also, using SSB on a melee piece is just fine. The ability has 'blaster' in the name, oh no! Now we can't have it on a melee piece to use it's function which is literally JUST to keep the piece from benefitting from Twin Attack... See the problems and complications that can come from a single, simple decision such as in that example, because we're afraid to let a GAME'S mechanics be used to make the GAME be played properly or a piece to behave properly within that GAME, because to some having a line on the card with the word 'blaster' on it when it's a melee piece (with that fact having LITERALLY ZEEEERROOOOOOOOO effect on the whether the piece functions as a melee or non-melee piece, or whether the piece feels like the character it's representing) is too distracting or bothersome or I don't know what?
It's a case where COMMON SENSE must be exercised. Everyone using such a piece already knows it doesn't have a blaster, but they also know why SSB is necessary and thus why it is there. Nobody (well, I'd have thought...) cares if the word 'blaster' appears in the name of an ability on such a card. Its presence there has literally NO change in the way it makes the character function, which is to keep the piece from using Twin, and it has no change in a player's perception of the character or piece.
Yes, giving a character Makashi when they only practiced, say, Niman, it is arguably something that shouldn't happen (unless, even if they didn't use Makashi, maybe there's a specific trait they have that you want to represent that they had a fighting style that got around some of the other styles like Makashi does and you would want to represent that? Perhaps then it would fit, but would require some consideration... Is it worth having the name of a style they don't use on the card if the whole ability fits them as a character in terms of game function, or just make something different since Makashi is a very specific ability representing a certain fighting style?), give it parry or something if you want melee defense. I totally get that, I understand not wanting to ruin the flavor of a piece just to suit certain needs in abilities when you could just as easily use something else that is available. But in this case, trying to do that is going to have the opposite effect, I'm afraid, not to mention we're not dealing with specific abilities like Makashi, just non-exclusive generic game mechanics and abilities, to make the piece as a whole function in the way I want it to based on how I envision the game mechanics working with the scene, in a way that doesn't make the piece too powerful.
There are other things like Nico 'smuggling' a piece by using a mechanic previously established as 'towing' to drag an adjacent character 12 squares as he walks/runs/moves and then cloaking it at the end, which really don't make sense in reality, but that example makes a fine and interesting representation of Nico being a smuggler who would hide people on his ship and transport them, while still being a useful and sensible function within the game itself and using/combining/evolving mechanics and functions already within the game to create the desired effect, not to mention it's FUN (I had actually used a similar ability on a past custom of Han Solo as a Zann Consortium hired smuggler)! In other words, it works fine as a game function. Everybody knows what is being represented and is comfortable using that mechanic even though it doesn't really make much sense from a literal point of view.
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Post by jenari on Sept 7, 2015 9:59:04 GMT -6
pego if you refuse to see that it simply does not make since to make attacks when the piece never made an attack than I can't help you here.
maybe someone else can explain it better than me.
but I will never get behind a piece that is attacking, dealing no damage, and the piece being represented didn't attack anyone. and when attacking and dealing no damage, somehow deals damage to non unique pieces.
I will stop discussing it with you and let someone else show you reason
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Post by pegolego on Sept 7, 2015 10:02:35 GMT -6
I'm confused, is your problem with Scrub Hunter? If so, I have little attachment to it, it was suggested as a way to give the piece dual-purpose as another way to clear out swarms of little pieces, like a lot of things in the Legends format. I don't care if it's there or not and honestly it may be more balanced without it.
So, say we removed Scrub Hunter... Then it doesn't deal any damage, and it's attack phase becomes solely for the purpose I had intended. Would that be more acceptable to you?
Also, there is precedent with pieces such as the Tsik-Vai or whatever that Vong huge is who have 0 damage but can circumstantially deal damage (like Darth Wyyrlock, in that regard, or R2 Astro or a number of other pieces, though those are slightly different circumstances), and whose main function in using the attack phase is that it's trying to use it's 'Clamp' ability on you.
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Post by jenari on Oct 10, 2015 19:19:34 GMT -6
why commotion when we have diversion? why jolt when he deals no damage and I'd not actually making attacks? why strafe attack if he is not attacking?
why are we not trying to represent the character?
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Post by jenari on Oct 13, 2015 12:13:30 GMT -6
paploo has not gone anywhere so I am changing him.
this is what I propose.
or we can make something else and put paploo on hold
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Post by jenari on Oct 13, 2015 19:24:32 GMT -6
alright. we need to move on with this piece, it is the last one and we can call battle front done.
so as the "admin" for this set I am kind of stuck here.
there is no way strafe, jolt, flight, commotion and all that stuff is going to go on paploo because it doesn't make sense.
I came up with an alternative that I feel is just as good, les confusing, more thematic and easier to use. if you don't respond about it than I Will be forced to drop paploo from this set and make a new piece myself so I know it will get done.
just asking for the time of day here.
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Post by spryguy1981 on Oct 13, 2015 21:58:23 GMT -6
Flight makes all the sense in the world as it is a speeder bike lol. I think the version you posted will work, I like the Scrub Hunter mechanic though on him. Piece to smack some uggie and mice around.
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Post by jenari on Oct 14, 2015 12:38:18 GMT -6
Alright than I think this works. Hope you are ok with pego, but we are going to move on.
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